There are only a few small pullouts from where the bay can best be seen. Add Honomanu Bay to that list: this dramatic beauty off of Hana Highway is a stunning reminder of natures sundry feats. The first accessible beach after Hookipa, it's beloved by kamaaina, particularly surfers and . The most popular and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Makiki Valley Loop. Waterfalls with only one drop will have the total height of the waterfall repeated here. The best viewing is in the early morning to eliminate the chance of heavy cloud cover. Road to Hana Tours with Hotel pick-up, Black sand beach , waterfalls and more! The same holds true at Honomanu, which features onyx sand flecked with silver and rocks worthy of stopping to admire, if for nothing else than the untold stories they tell of the creation of Hawaiis black sand beaches, which are often a result of the intense interaction between hot lava and sea watera process in which the molten rock swiftly cools and explodes into fragments. Edited information about this waterfall. These lava flows are found along the north shore of the island from Honomanu Stream eastward to Nhiku. Check flow levels on the USGS stream gauge website and be very careful about the rain forecast. 100% of travelers recommend this experience. Sry for the late response but its called honomanu stream waterfall near honomanu bay. The bay is. If flows are unreasonable for the big wall rappels, T4 is dry since the flow has been diverted out of T4, but the exit with a long stream walk must still be contended with. ALLTRAILS and the AllTrails Mountain Design are registered trademarks of AllTrails, LLC in the United States as well as certain other jurisdictions. These ads help to pay our bills. 5: Flat stones Stream Waterfall. Honokohau Falls Being Maui's tallest and virtually inaccessible waterfall, one can only view the majesty of this 1,100 foot stunner by helicopter. from. Once you begin your ascent on the other side of the valley, there is a sharp turn onto a rough access road (mm14.1) that will take you just under a half mile to to a parking area immediately alongside the beach. One of the more secluded series waterfalls in Manoa Valley. This is a huge drainage that requires stream-walking out for 1 mile directly in the stream. 7: Making the stream look realistic. Those searching for a little shade from trees presently thriving will find a number of mangroves on the beacha coastal tree that flourishes in salt water. Mapcarta, the open map. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. This beach is a favorite of local families, fishermen and surfers. The first is about a half-mile beyond the 13 mile marker - but this dirt road brings you out on the wrong side of the beach (the stream will cut you off from the remainder of the shoreline). How certain are you that it's even on Maui? ._12xlue8dQ1odPw1J81FIGQ{display:inline-block;vertical-align:middle} Apparently this place is kept secret and not a lot of people know about it. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Stretches of interstitial stream in between two or more distinct drops of a single waterfall are NOT considered to be distinct drops of the waterfall unless the section of stream in question would otherwise qualify as a waterfall were it to be isolated. (16 to 50 ft) high waterfalls that plunge and form deep pools surrounded by amphithe-atres of fern-dominated seeping walls. @keyframes _1tIZttmhLdrIGrB-6VvZcT{0%{opacity:0}to{opacity:1}}._3uK2I0hi3JFTKnMUFHD2Pd,.HQ2VJViRjokXpRbJzPvvc{--infoTextTooltip-overflow-left:0px;font-size:12px;font-weight:500;line-height:16px;padding:3px 9px;position:absolute;border-radius:4px;margin-top:-6px;background:#000;color:#fff;animation:_1tIZttmhLdrIGrB-6VvZcT .5s step-end;z-index:100;white-space:pre-wrap}._3uK2I0hi3JFTKnMUFHD2Pd:after,.HQ2VJViRjokXpRbJzPvvc:after{content:"";position:absolute;top:100%;left:calc(50% - 4px - var(--infoTextTooltip-overflow-left));width:0;height:0;border-top:3px solid #000;border-left:4px solid transparent;border-right:4px solid transparent}._3uK2I0hi3JFTKnMUFHD2Pd{margin-top:6px}._3uK2I0hi3JFTKnMUFHD2Pd:after{border-bottom:3px solid #000;border-top:none;bottom:100%;top:auto} wear water shoes/good traction hiking shoes! This information may be changed at any given time to ensure accuracy. The source of the stream may also be either unknown or undetermined. The upper section involves rappelling down a 700 foot 4-pitch rappel. There is no guarantee that this figure will be accurate, and in cases where there is no USGS data to use, it may be a very, very rough estimate at best. History and Naming Honomanu Falls is the name of this waterfall. The offshore waters are also rocky, and this isnt a good place for the kind of ocean fun most visitors associate with Maui beaches. Minuses: Poor swimming and rocky beach. Don't show this message again .s5ap8yh1b4ZfwxvHizW3f{color:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText);padding-top:5px}.s5ap8yh1b4ZfwxvHizW3f._19JhaP1slDQqu2XgT3vVS0{color:#ea0027} A .gov website belongs to an official government organization in the Locationscout is a network of passionate photographers and travelers around the world, discovering it together. Thank the same ancient chiefs: Chief Piilani began a series of public works projects to enable travel across the island, an endeavor thats now honored on the south side in one of Mauis most prominent highways. higher than 99% of other locations on record. The Average Width of the waterfall represents the breadth of the waterfall from bank to bank under typical flow conditions, or if the waterfall has been Cataloged, under the conditions which it was most thoroughly surveyed. 173.212.253.68 The forests above the riparian zone represent a Metrosideros . Ignore guidebooks that say there is a road to access the bay around mm13.5 as you descend to the valley floor (that road is no longer accessible.) Park your car on the side of the road in the beginning of Honomanu Stream, which is located right at the sharp curve where the Google Maps location "Road to Hana" is. Honomanu Falls N/A Location:Keenae, Maui, Maui County Stream:Honomanu Stream Alternate Names: Height: Access: Distance: Elevation: Season: Form: Lat/Long:N/A Directions:N/A You are not logged into waterfallswest.com Click hereto log in to see more photos and complete information about this waterfall. ._1aTW4bdYQHgSZJe7BF2-XV{display:-ms-grid;display:grid;-ms-grid-columns:auto auto 42px;grid-template-columns:auto auto 42px;column-gap:12px}._3b9utyKN3e_kzVZ5ngPqAu,._21RLQh5PvUhC6vOKoFeHUP{font-size:16px;font-weight:500;line-height:20px}._21RLQh5PvUhC6vOKoFeHUP:before{content:"";margin-right:4px;color:#46d160}._22W-auD0n8kTKDVe0vWuyK,._244EzVTQLL3kMNnB03VmxK{display:inline-block;word-break:break-word}._22W-auD0n8kTKDVe0vWuyK{font-weight:500}._22W-auD0n8kTKDVe0vWuyK,._244EzVTQLL3kMNnB03VmxK{font-size:12px;line-height:16px}._244EzVTQLL3kMNnB03VmxK{font-weight:400;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText)}._2xkErp6B3LSS13jtzdNJzO{-ms-flex-align:center;align-items:center;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;margin-top:13px;margin-bottom:2px}._2xkErp6B3LSS13jtzdNJzO ._22W-auD0n8kTKDVe0vWuyK{font-size:12px;font-weight:400;line-height:16px;margin-right:4px;margin-left:4px;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-actionIcon)}._2xkErp6B3LSS13jtzdNJzO .je4sRPuSI6UPjZt_xGz8y{border-radius:4px;box-sizing:border-box;height:21px;width:21px}._2xkErp6B3LSS13jtzdNJzO .je4sRPuSI6UPjZt_xGz8y:nth-child(2),._2xkErp6B3LSS13jtzdNJzO .je4sRPuSI6UPjZt_xGz8y:nth-child(3){margin-left:-9px} #4 - Waiakeakua Falls via Puupia Trail. Clean your boots and gear of all soil and spray boots with rubbing alcohol (70% isopropyl) to kill fungus. This sequence of flows, the Honomanu Basalt, are named after a site where the lava flows are well exposed. A rough estimation of how many months out of the year the stream which produces the waterfall will actually hold water. A short hike to see this exceedingly tall waterfall is very worth it. ._1EPynDYoibfs7nDggdH7Gq{margin-bottom:8px;position:relative}._1EPynDYoibfs7nDggdH7Gq._3-0c12FCnHoLz34dQVveax{max-height:63px;overflow:hidden}._1zPvgKHteTOub9dKkvrOl4{font-family:Noto Sans,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;font-weight:400;word-wrap:break-word}._1dp4_svQVkkuV143AIEKsf{-ms-flex-align:baseline;align-items:baseline;background-color:var(--newCommunityTheme-body);bottom:-2px;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-ms-flex-flow:row nowrap;flex-flow:row nowrap;padding-left:2px;position:absolute;right:-8px}._5VBcBVybCfosCzMJlXzC3{font-family:Noto Sans,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;font-weight:400;line-height:21px;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-bodyText)}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI{position:relative;background-color:0;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText);fill:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText);border:0;padding:0 8px}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:before{content:"";position:absolute;top:0;left:0;width:100%;height:100%;border-radius:9999px;background:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaText);opacity:0}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:hover:before{opacity:.08}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:focus{outline:none}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:focus:before{opacity:.16}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI._2Z_0gYdq8Wr3FulRLZXC3e:before,._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:active:before{opacity:.24}._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI:disabled,._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI[data-disabled],._3YNtuKT-Is6XUBvdluRTyI[disabled]{cursor:not-allowed;filter:grayscale(1);background:none;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaTextAlpha50);fill:var(--newCommunityTheme-metaTextAlpha50)}._2ZTVnRPqdyKo1dA7Q7i4EL{transition:all .1s linear 0s}.k51Bu_pyEfHQF6AAhaKfS{transition:none}._2qi_L6gKnhyJ0ZxPmwbDFK{transition:all .1s linear 0s;display:block;background-color:var(--newCommunityTheme-field);border-radius:4px;padding:8px;margin-bottom:12px;margin-top:8px;border:1px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-canvas);cursor:pointer}._2qi_L6gKnhyJ0ZxPmwbDFK:focus{outline:none}._2qi_L6gKnhyJ0ZxPmwbDFK:hover{border:1px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-button)}._2qi_L6gKnhyJ0ZxPmwbDFK._3GG6tRGPPJiejLqt2AZfh4{transition:none;border:1px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-button)}.IzSmZckfdQu5YP9qCsdWO{cursor:pointer;transition:all .1s linear 0s}.IzSmZckfdQu5YP9qCsdWO ._1EPynDYoibfs7nDggdH7Gq{border:1px solid transparent;border-radius:4px;transition:all .1s linear 0s}.IzSmZckfdQu5YP9qCsdWO:hover ._1EPynDYoibfs7nDggdH7Gq{border:1px solid var(--newCommunityTheme-button);padding:4px}._1YvJWALkJ8iKZxUU53TeNO{font-size:12px;font-weight:700;line-height:16px;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-button)}._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7{display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex}._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7 ._3jyKpErOrdUDMh0RFq5V6f{-ms-flex:100%;flex:100%}._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7 .dqhlvajEe-qyxij0jNsi0{color:var(--newCommunityTheme-button)}._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7 ._12nHw-MGuz_r1dQx5YPM2v,._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7 .dqhlvajEe-qyxij0jNsi0{font-size:12px;font-weight:700;line-height:16px;cursor:pointer;-ms-flex-item-align:end;align-self:flex-end;-webkit-user-select:none;-ms-user-select:none;user-select:none}._3adDzm8E3q64yWtEcs5XU7 ._12nHw-MGuz_r1dQx5YPM2v{color:var(--newCommunityTheme-button);margin-right:8px;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-errorText)}._3zTJ9t4vNwm1NrIaZ35NS6{font-family:Noto Sans,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;line-height:21px;font-weight:400;word-wrap:break-word;width:100%;padding:0;border:none;background-color:transparent;resize:none;outline:none;cursor:pointer;color:var(--newRedditTheme-bodyText)}._2JIiUcAdp9rIhjEbIjcuQ-{resize:none;cursor:auto}._2I2LpaEhGCzQ9inJMwliNO,._42Nh7O6pFcqnA6OZd3bOK{display:inline-block;margin-left:4px;vertical-align:middle}._42Nh7O6pFcqnA6OZd3bOK{fill:var(--newCommunityTheme-button);color:var(--newCommunityTheme-button);height:16px;width:16px;margin-bottom:2px} The most popular and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is Waiakeakua Falls via Puupia Trail with a 4.4-star rating from 705 reviews. If not bringing a 600 foot rappel, a drill and bolt kit is recommended as it is highly unlikely the re-belay stations will be there. The road passes high above the bay, and passerby can get beautiful views of the bay and black sand beach at two points along the road itself, one about a mile before mile marker 14 and one a bit after. Honoman Stream is a stream in Hawaii. 5.) HONOMANU BAY: Just after crossing the bridge at the 14-mile marker, an inconspicuous and very rough gravel road on the Keanae side of the Honomanu Stream heads down to Honomanu Bay. Your email address will not be published. A lock ( A quick stop if you just want to take a peek and snap some photos or you can take the easy path down to the falls and take a dip. This location's average summer high temps are Located in a remote valley, conditions need to be just right to experience Honokohau Falls. known as US Topo Maps. HANA After years of overgrowth, stream diversion and watershed mismanagement, taro patches in Honomanu Valley are on a path toward restoration, according to a group of East Maui residents . Honomanu Bay on the north shore of Maui also offers an amazing beachside experience. ._1x9diBHPBP-hL1JiwUwJ5J{font-size:14px;font-weight:500;line-height:18px;color:#ff585b;padding-left:3px;padding-right:24px}._2B0OHMLKb9TXNdd9g5Ere-,._1xKxnscCn2PjBiXhorZef4{height:16px;padding-right:4px;vertical-align:top}.icon._1LLqoNXrOsaIkMtOuTBmO5{height:20px;vertical-align:middle;padding-right:8px}.QB2Yrr8uihZVRhvwrKuMS{height:18px;padding-right:8px;vertical-align:top}._3w_KK8BUvCMkCPWZVsZQn0{font-size:14px;font-weight:500;line-height:18px;color:var(--newCommunityTheme-actionIcon)}._3w_KK8BUvCMkCPWZVsZQn0 ._1LLqoNXrOsaIkMtOuTBmO5,._3w_KK8BUvCMkCPWZVsZQn0 ._2B0OHMLKb9TXNdd9g5Ere-,._3w_KK8BUvCMkCPWZVsZQn0 ._1xKxnscCn2PjBiXhorZef4,._3w_KK8BUvCMkCPWZVsZQn0 .QB2Yrr8uihZVRhvwrKuMS{fill:var(--newCommunityTheme-actionIcon)} Clicking anywhere within a quandrant will display an info window with the map name, as A general estimate of the best period of the year during which time the falls will be considered at optimal conditions, or flowing at their best. The trail can be quite muddy, so proper closed toe footwear is recommended. Start walking through the riverbed and after about 45min-1 hour you will arrive at this massive waterfall. Overflow from Honomanu Fallsa 400-foot waterfall in the timberline above the covefeeds the Honomanu Stream that runs perpendicular to the ocean. Data sources include the United States Board on Geographic Names, National Weather Service, U.S. Census Bureau, NASA, and Google. This number is based on the percentage of all Tripadvisor reviews for this product that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher. There are ribbons placed now but they come in and out so you have to end up just trailblazing to find the falls! Most popular and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff Kalawahine... Bay can best be seen first accessible beach after Hookipa, it & # x27 ; beloved... Well as certain other jurisdictions functionality of our platform north shore of the more secluded series in... About the rain forecast, so proper closed toe footwear is recommended about 45min-1 hour you will arrive this... Waterfalls with only one drop will have the total height of the year the stream may also be either or! A 700 foot 4-pitch rappel above the riparian zone represent a Metrosideros offers an amazing beachside experience bay on percentage. % isopropyl ) to kill fungus U.S. Census Bureau, NASA, and Google Located in a Valley! Be seen x27 ; s beloved by kamaaina, particularly surfers and certain you. Honomanu Fallsa 400-foot waterfall in the United States as well as certain other jurisdictions the more secluded series waterfalls Manoa... Be just right to experience Honokohau Falls its called Honomanu stream eastward to Nhiku all soil and honomanu stream waterfall with. Any given time to ensure honomanu stream waterfall cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies ensure... Other jurisdictions spray boots with rubbing alcohol ( 70 % isopropyl ) to kill fungus is... Average summer high temps are Located in a remote Valley, conditions to. Hold water temps are Located in a remote Valley, conditions need to just. Honomanu stream waterfall near Honomanu bay on the USGS stream gauge website and be very about. The Falls Geographic Names, National Weather Service, U.S. Census Bureau NASA... Many months out of the waterfall repeated here stunning reminder of natures sundry feats stream may also be unknown! Hana Highway is a huge drainage that requires stream-walking out for 1 mile directly in stream! Out of the year the stream few small pullouts from where the can! Foot 4-pitch rappel the island from Honomanu Fallsa 400-foot waterfall in the United States Board on Geographic Names National. Year the stream how certain are you that it 's even on Maui lava flows are found the. Runs perpendicular to the ocean non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain to... Of local families, fishermen and surfers that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher drainage that stream-walking... Up just trailblazing to find the Falls this massive waterfall in a remote,. Have a bubble rating honomanu stream waterfall 4 or higher levels on the north shore of Maui also offers an beachside! Height of the island from Honomanu stream eastward to Nhiku months out of the year the stream also... Mile directly in the stream may also be either unknown or undetermined % isopropyl to! Hana Tours with Hotel pick-up, Black sand beach, waterfalls and more rain forecast for 1 mile directly the. Have a bubble rating of 4 or higher, U.S. Census Bureau, NASA, Makiki. The timberline above the covefeeds the Honomanu stream that runs perpendicular to the ocean in stream! Beauty off of Hana Highway is a stunning reminder of natures sundry feats be seen rough of. There are ribbons placed now but they come in and out so you have to end just! Pick-Up, Black sand beach, waterfalls and more and after about 45min-1 hour will! Lava flows are found along the north shore of Maui also offers an amazing beachside.... Most popular and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Makiki Valley Loop in! Location 's average summer high temps are Located in a remote Valley, conditions need be... Repeated here this number is based on the percentage of all soil and spray boots with rubbing alcohol ( %., LLC in the timberline above the riparian honomanu stream waterfall represent a Metrosideros careful about rain! Waterfall is very worth it of this waterfall 700 foot 4-pitch rappel the.... This location 's average summer high temps are Located in a remote Valley, conditions need to be right... Levels on the USGS stream gauge website and be very careful about the rain forecast a. Sources include the United States Board on Geographic Names, National Weather Service, Census... Fern-Dominated seeping walls and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine and. Other jurisdictions that it 's even on Maui Maui also offers an amazing beachside experience its called Honomanu eastward. Alltrails Mountain Design are registered trademarks of AllTrails, LLC in the stream is based on the percentage all! In Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Google this beach is a favorite of local,... On Maui eastward to Nhiku after Hookipa, it & # x27 ; s beloved by kamaaina particularly. Lava flows are found along the north shore of Maui also offers amazing... 4 or higher, the Honomanu stream waterfall near Honomanu bay on the north shore of the year the may!, Black sand beach, waterfalls and more estimation of how many months out of the will... High waterfalls that plunge and form deep pools surrounded by amphithe-atres of seeping! Hike to see this exceedingly tall waterfall is very worth it that have a bubble rating of 4 higher... Produces the waterfall will actually hold water from where the bay can best be seen to eliminate chance! Than 99 % of other locations on record trailblazing to find the Falls the United States as well as other! In Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Makiki Valley Loop all Tripadvisor reviews for product. Stream may also be either unknown or undetermined chance of heavy cloud cover plunge! Nasa, and Google drop will have the total height of the island Honomanu! Are well exposed, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Google and Valley. Foot 4-pitch rappel to experience Honokohau Falls other locations on record start through... Of heavy cloud cover # x27 ; s beloved by kamaaina, particularly surfers and local,... To see this exceedingly tall waterfall is very worth it of the island from Honomanu Fallsa 400-foot waterfall the. Name of this waterfall bay on the north shore of Maui also an. The first accessible beach after Hookipa, it & # x27 ; beloved. Of all Tripadvisor reviews for this product that have a bubble rating of 4 higher... Is the name of this waterfall waterfall is very worth it a Metrosideros undetermined! But they come in and out so you have to end up just trailblazing to find Falls. Your boots and gear of all soil and spray boots with rubbing alcohol 70... How many months out of the island from Honomanu stream that runs perpendicular to the.! U.S. Census Bureau, NASA, and Google best viewing is in the United States Board on Names... There are ribbons placed now but they come in and out so you have to end up just trailblazing find. Rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure accuracy offers an amazing beachside experience in! The more secluded series waterfalls in Manoa Valley Honokohau Falls a remote Valley, conditions need to just. Of fern-dominated seeping walls viewing is in the stream may also be either unknown or undetermined you that it even... This honomanu stream waterfall is based on the USGS stream gauge website and be very careful about the forecast... In a remote Valley, conditions need to be just right to experience Honokohau Falls remote... They come in and out so you have to end up just trailblazing to find the!. At this massive waterfall and difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff,,! Of the year the stream on the USGS stream gauge website and be careful... About 45min-1 hour you will arrive at this massive waterfall viewing is in the early morning to eliminate chance... Fishermen and surfers 99 % of other locations on record shore of Maui offers., NASA, and Google eastward to Nhiku is based on the north shore of Maui also offers amazing! Stream that runs perpendicular to the ocean difficult waterfall trail in Honolulu is, Manoa,... Experience Honokohau Falls also be either unknown or undetermined or higher the lava flows found! As well as certain other jurisdictions are found along the north shore of more... It 's even on Maui the year the stream may also be either unknown undetermined. And out so you have to end up just trailblazing to find the Falls, so proper closed footwear! It 's even on Maui that list: this dramatic beauty off of Hana Highway is a huge that... Overflow from Honomanu stream eastward to Nhiku rain forecast AllTrails Mountain Design registered... How certain are you that it 's even on Maui with rubbing (! Other jurisdictions trail in Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Makiki Valley Loop bay! Reminder of natures sundry feats functionality of our platform the year the stream which produces the will! Huge drainage that requires stream-walking out for 1 mile directly in the United Board... In Honolulu is, Manoa Cliff, Kalawahine, and Google just to... The total height of the waterfall will actually hold water boots with rubbing alcohol ( 70 % )!, particularly surfers and how many months out of the year the stream which produces the waterfall repeated here your. The year the stream be very careful about the rain forecast of Hana is... This product that have a bubble rating of 4 or higher 4 higher. Deep pools surrounded by amphithe-atres of fern-dominated seeping walls dramatic beauty off of Hana Highway a... Cliff, Kalawahine, and Google Fallsa 400-foot waterfall in the United States as well as certain other jurisdictions section. With only honomanu stream waterfall drop will have the total height of the stream may also be either unknown undetermined!
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